Discussion:
[DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was (Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
(too old to reply)
Sean Busbey
2015-06-30 19:08:45 UTC
Permalink
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion thread)

A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still seems
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.

Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month period
instead of an outright ban?

It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list, but
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming that I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.

-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal - a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing lists.
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Andrew Purtell
2015-06-30 19:11:49 UTC
Permalink
I this particular case I don't think anything will prevent an escalation (I
hope I am wrong, though) but as a general policy starting with moderation
is an even softer touch than a temporary ban and so I'd be in favor for
that reason. I will abstain on if we should do that in this instance.
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion thread)
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still seems
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month period
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list, but
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming that I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal - a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is enough,
in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing lists.
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
--
Best regards,

- Andy

Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
Stack
2015-06-30 19:18:16 UTC
Permalink
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion thread)
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still seems
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month period
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list, but
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming that I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal - a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is enough,
in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing lists.
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Stack
2015-06-30 19:25:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of Michael.
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion thread)
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still seems
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month period
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list, but
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming that I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal -
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing lists.
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
lars hofhansl
2015-07-01 00:58:49 UTC
Permalink
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the only one.

-- Lars
From: Stack <***@duboce.net>
To: Hbase-User <***@hbase.apache.org>
Cc: "***@hbase.apache.org" <***@hbase.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was (Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of Michael.
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.


St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion thread)
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still seems
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month period
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list, but
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming that I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal -
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing lists.
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
    - Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Sean Busbey
2015-07-01 01:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the only one.
So far we have both you and I willing to volunteer. I'm comfortable at two
moderators if you are, though I'd certainly welcome additional.
--
Sean
Enis Söztutar
2015-07-01 01:36:21 UTC
Permalink
I've just saw the thread in question, and I also feel that an action has to
be taken because this type of behavior is unacceptable. It is also not the
first strike if my memory serves me.

Moderation is fine if we have voluteers. Otherwise +1 for a temporary ban.

Enis
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the only one.
So far we have both you and I willing to volunteer. I'm comfortable at two
moderators if you are, though I'd certainly welcome additional.
--
Sean
Andrew Purtell
2015-07-01 02:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this is about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back on the original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going to defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the first time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the only one.
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was (Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of Michael.
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion thread)
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still seems
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month period
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list, but
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming that I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal -
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing lists.
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
lars hofhansl
2015-07-01 03:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Right. Hence the moderating or temporary ban.
From: Andrew Purtell <***@gmail.com>
To: "***@hbase.apache.org" <***@hbase.apache.org>
Cc: Hbase-User <***@hbase.apache.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was (Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)

Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this is about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back on the original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going to defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the first time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the only one.
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was (Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of Michael.
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion thread)
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still seems
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month period
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list, but
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming that I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal -
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing lists.
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
    - Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Cody Marcel
2015-07-01 15:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Seems odd to create extra work for already crazy busy volunteers. You would
basically be moderating one individual. Just objectively look at whether
the value he adds to the community outweighs the time and emotional capitol
spent in these conversations. I suspect the fact the this thread is
happening is because some people have reached their limits to the abuse.
Post by lars hofhansl
Right. Hence the moderating or temporary ban.
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this is
about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic
people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back on the
original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going to
defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the first
time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Post by lars hofhansl
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the
only one.
Post by lars hofhansl
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of Michael.
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion
thread)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still
seems
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month
period
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list,
but
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming
that
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal
-
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet
Hein
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Nicolas Liochon
2015-07-01 16:09:33 UTC
Permalink
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds code?
And it's not the first time. A 3 month ban seems ok to me.
Seems odd to create extra work for already crazy busy volunteers. You would
basically be moderating one individual. Just objectively look at whether
the value he adds to the community outweighs the time and emotional capitol
spent in these conversations. I suspect the fact the this thread is
happening is because some people have reached their limits to the abuse.
Post by lars hofhansl
Right. Hence the moderating or temporary ban.
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this is
about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic
people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back on
the
Post by lars hofhansl
original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going to
defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the
first
Post by lars hofhansl
time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Post by lars hofhansl
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the
only one.
Post by lars hofhansl
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of
Michael.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion
thread)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still
seems
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community
or
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month
period
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list,
but
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming
that
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my
proposal
Post by lars hofhansl
-
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for
a
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we
would
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then
please
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Purtell <
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities
if
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in
engineering
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet
Hein
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Andrew Purtell
2015-07-01 16:42:38 UTC
Permalink
For those who are advocating moderation, would you be opposed if I propose
a 3 month ban for a vote? If you are not opposed, then we should be able to
achieve consensus here without needing a vote to take place.
Post by Nicolas Liochon
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds code?
And it's not the first time. A 3 month ban seems ok to me.
Seems odd to create extra work for already crazy busy volunteers. You
would
basically be moderating one individual. Just objectively look at whether
the value he adds to the community outweighs the time and emotional
capitol
spent in these conversations. I suspect the fact the this thread is
happening is because some people have reached their limits to the abuse.
Post by lars hofhansl
Right. Hence the moderating or temporary ban.
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists
was
Post by lars hofhansl
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this is
about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic
people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back on
the
Post by lars hofhansl
original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going to
defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the
first
Post by lars hofhansl
time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Post by lars hofhansl
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the
only one.
Post by lars hofhansl
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists
was
Post by lars hofhansl
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of
Michael.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion
thread)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still
seems
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community
or
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month
period
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing
list,
Post by lars hofhansl
but
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior.
Presuming
Post by lars hofhansl
that
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Andrew Purtell <
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to
be
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't
be
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to
the
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
community should the message be received. So let me amend my
proposal
Post by lars hofhansl
-
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling
for
a
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we
would
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then
please
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Purtell <
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev
communities
if
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any
and
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive.
Nobody
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that
pounds
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in
engineering
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. -
Piet
Post by lars hofhansl
Hein
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
--
Best regards,

- Andy

Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
lars hofhansl
2015-07-01 17:13:26 UTC
Permalink
I don't feel strongly. A 3 month ban is fine.
-- Lars

From: Andrew Purtell <***@apache.org>
To: "***@hbase.apache.org" <***@hbase.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2015 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was (Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)

For those who are advocating moderation, would you be opposed if I propose
a 3 month ban for a vote? If you are not opposed, then we should be able to
achieve consensus here without needing a vote to take place.
Post by Nicolas Liochon
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds code?
And it's not the first time. A 3 month ban seems ok to me.
Seems odd to create extra work for already crazy busy volunteers. You
would
basically be moderating one individual. Just objectively look at whether
the value he adds to the community outweighs the time and emotional
capitol
spent in these conversations. I suspect the fact the this thread is
happening is because some people have reached their limits to the abuse.
Post by lars hofhansl
Right. Hence the moderating or temporary ban.
  Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:28 PM
  Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists
was
Post by lars hofhansl
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this is
about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic
people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back on
the
Post by lars hofhansl
original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going to
defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the
first
Post by lars hofhansl
time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Post by lars hofhansl
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the
only one.
Post by lars hofhansl
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists
was
Post by lars hofhansl
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of
Michael.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion
thread)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still
seems
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community
or
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month
period
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing
list,
Post by lars hofhansl
but
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior.
Presuming
Post by lars hofhansl
that
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Andrew Purtell <
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to
be
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't
be
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to
the
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
community should the message be received. So let me amend my
proposal
Post by lars hofhansl
-
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling
for
a
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we
would
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then
please
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Purtell <
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev
communities
if
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any
and
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive.
Nobody
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that
pounds
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in
engineering
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
    - Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. -
Piet
Post by lars hofhansl
Hein
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
--
Best regards,

  - Andy

Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
Andrew Purtell
2015-07-01 17:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Also, just for your information, since I haven't seen it mentioned here
yet, Apache recently developed a Foundation wide code of conduct:
http://apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html . (Someone reminded me
off list.) Please consider reviewing it if you haven't previously.
Post by Andrew Purtell
For those who are advocating moderation, would you be opposed if I propose
a 3 month ban for a vote? If you are not opposed, then we should be able to
achieve consensus here without needing a vote to take place.
Post by Nicolas Liochon
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds code?
And it's not the first time. A 3 month ban seems ok to me.
Seems odd to create extra work for already crazy busy volunteers. You
would
basically be moderating one individual. Just objectively look at whether
the value he adds to the community outweighs the time and emotional
capitol
spent in these conversations. I suspect the fact the this thread is
happening is because some people have reached their limits to the abuse.
Post by lars hofhansl
Right. Hence the moderating or temporary ban.
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists
was
Post by lars hofhansl
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this
is
Post by lars hofhansl
about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic
people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back
on
the
Post by lars hofhansl
original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going
to
Post by lars hofhansl
defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the
first
Post by lars hofhansl
time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Post by lars hofhansl
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the
only one.
Post by lars hofhansl
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists
was
Post by lars hofhansl
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of
Michael.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Sean Busbey <
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion
thread)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still
seems
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh
community
or
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three
month
Post by lars hofhansl
period
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing
list,
Post by lars hofhansl
but
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior.
Presuming
Post by lars hofhansl
that
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to
volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Andrew Purtell <
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to
be
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and
won't be
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to
the
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
community should the message be received. So let me amend my
proposal
Post by lars hofhansl
-
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling
for
a
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we
would
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then
please
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Purtell <
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev
communities
if
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any
and
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive.
Nobody
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that
pounds
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in
engineering
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
schools these days?
Sean Busbey
2015-07-01 17:23:07 UTC
Permalink
I would not vote -1 on a 3 month ban. It doesn't look like we have
consensus around moderating messages.
Post by Andrew Purtell
For those who are advocating moderation, would you be opposed if I propose
a 3 month ban for a vote? If you are not opposed, then we should be able to
achieve consensus here without needing a vote to take place.
Post by Nicolas Liochon
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds code?
And it's not the first time. A 3 month ban seems ok to me.
Seems odd to create extra work for already crazy busy volunteers. You
would
basically be moderating one individual. Just objectively look at
whether
Post by Nicolas Liochon
the value he adds to the community outweighs the time and emotional
capitol
spent in these conversations. I suspect the fact the this thread is
happening is because some people have reached their limits to the
abuse.
Post by Nicolas Liochon
Post by lars hofhansl
Right. Hence the moderating or temporary ban.
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists
was
Post by lars hofhansl
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this
is
Post by Nicolas Liochon
Post by lars hofhansl
about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic
people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back
on
Post by Nicolas Liochon
the
Post by lars hofhansl
original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going
to
Post by Nicolas Liochon
Post by lars hofhansl
defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the
first
Post by lars hofhansl
time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal
is
Post by Nicolas Liochon
Post by lars hofhansl
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Post by lars hofhansl
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm
the
Post by Nicolas Liochon
Post by lars hofhansl
only one.
Post by lars hofhansl
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists
was
Post by lars hofhansl
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of
Michael.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 12:08 PM, Sean Busbey <
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion
thread)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it
still
Post by Nicolas Liochon
Post by lars hofhansl
seems
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh
community
Post by Nicolas Liochon
or
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three
month
Post by Nicolas Liochon
Post by lars hofhansl
period
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing
list,
Post by lars hofhansl
but
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior.
Presuming
Post by lars hofhansl
that
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to
volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Andrew Purtell <
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to
be
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and
won't
Post by Nicolas Liochon
be
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to
the
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
community should the message be received. So let me amend my
proposal
Post by lars hofhansl
-
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling
for
a
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we
would
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then
please
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Purtell <
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev
communities
if
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any
and
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive.
Nobody
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that
pounds
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in
engineering
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. -
Piet
Post by lars hofhansl
Hein
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Sean Busbey
2015-07-01 17:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Due to an off list request, let me clarify my previous email. Apologies if
this is overly detailed, but I'm presuming folks on user@ don't often deal
with ASF mechanics.

For those on ***@hbase, Andrew asked on a sub-thread that mistakenly went
only to ***@hbase if those advocating for moderating Michael S's email
would we would vote against a 3 month ban if Andrew called a vote. My
response copied ***@hbase back in and that's why you may have a gap in
messages.

In ASF terminology, votes are one of

* <0 against or a veto depending on what kind of vote has been called,
usually "-1"
* 0 either neutral or too conflicted to state a for/against preference,
usually has some concerns attached
* >0 in favor, usually "+1"

I precisely said "I would not vote -1" because I would not take a stance
that might cause the vote to fail, but I would not vote in favor. I very
likely would vote "-0 I think moderating his messages will suffice, but
acknowledge the community does not want that."
Post by Sean Busbey
I would not vote -1 on a 3 month ban. It doesn't look like we have
consensus around moderating messages.
Post by Andrew Purtell
For those who are advocating moderation, would you be opposed if I propose
a 3 month ban for a vote? If you are not opposed, then we should be able to
achieve consensus here without needing a vote to take place.
--
Sean
Andrew Purtell
2015-07-03 21:27:10 UTC
Permalink
It looks like the discussion is settling down and we have a consensus on
the course of action of a three month temporary ban from the project
mailing lists. If you feel that is not correct please say so, otherwise on
Monday the PMC will begin that process.

Going forward I think we should have a documented policy. We've never
needed this before but now that has changed. Below is a strawman for your
kind consideration. I will file a JIRA with a site update proposal next
week if someone doesn't beat me to it.
We expect participants in discussions on the HBase project mailing lists,
IRC channels, and JIRA issues to abide by the Apache Software Foundation's
Code of Conduct (http://apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html).

If you feel there had been a violation of this code, please point out your
concerns publicly in a friendly and matter of fact manner.
Nonverbal communication is prone to misinterpretation and misunderstanding.
Everyone has bad days and sometimes says things they regret later. Someone
else's communication style may clash with yours, but the difference can be
amicably resolved. After pointing out your concerns please be generous upon
receiving an apology.

Should there be repeated instances of code of conduct violations, or if
there is an obvious and severe violation, the HBase PMC may become
involved. When this happens the PMC will openly discuss the matter, most
likely on the ***@hbase mailing list, and will consider taking the
following actions, in order, if there is a continuing problem with an
individual:

1. A friendly off-list warning;

2. A friendly public warning, if the communication at issue was on list,
otherwise another off-list warning;

3. A three month suspension from the public mailing lists and possible
operator action in the IRC channels.

4. A permanent ban from the public mailing lists, IRC channels, and project
JIRA.

For flagrant violations requiring a firm response the PMC may opt to skip
early steps. No action will be taken before public discussion leading
to consensus or a successful majority vote.

<<<
Post by Sean Busbey
Due to an off list request, let me clarify my previous email. Apologies if
with ASF mechanics.
would we would vote against a 3 month ban if Andrew called a vote. My
messages.
In ASF terminology, votes are one of
* <0 against or a veto depending on what kind of vote has been called,
usually "-1"
* 0 either neutral or too conflicted to state a for/against preference,
usually has some concerns attached
* >0 in favor, usually "+1"
I precisely said "I would not vote -1" because I would not take a stance
that might cause the vote to fail, but I would not vote in favor. I very
likely would vote "-0 I think moderating his messages will suffice, but
acknowledge the community does not want that."
Post by Sean Busbey
I would not vote -1 on a 3 month ban. It doesn't look like we have
consensus around moderating messages.
<javascript:;>>
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Andrew Purtell
For those who are advocating moderation, would you be opposed if I
propose
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Andrew Purtell
a 3 month ban for a vote? If you are not opposed, then we should be able to
achieve consensus here without needing a vote to take place.
--
Sean
--
Best regards,

- Andy

Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
Stack
2015-07-04 01:41:56 UTC
Permalink
I like your proposed text Andrew.
St.Ack
Post by Andrew Purtell
It looks like the discussion is settling down and we have a consensus on
the course of action of a three month temporary ban from the project
mailing lists. If you feel that is not correct please say so, otherwise on
Monday the PMC will begin that process.
Going forward I think we should have a documented policy. We've never
needed this before but now that has changed. Below is a strawman for your
kind consideration. I will file a JIRA with a site update proposal next
week if someone doesn't beat me to it.
We expect participants in discussions on the HBase project mailing lists,
IRC channels, and JIRA issues to abide by the Apache Software Foundation's
Code of Conduct (http://apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html).
If you feel there had been a violation of this code, please point out your
concerns publicly in a friendly and matter of fact manner.
Nonverbal communication is prone to misinterpretation and misunderstanding.
Everyone has bad days and sometimes says things they regret later. Someone
else's communication style may clash with yours, but the difference can be
amicably resolved. After pointing out your concerns please be generous upon
receiving an apology.
Should there be repeated instances of code of conduct violations, or if
there is an obvious and severe violation, the HBase PMC may become
involved. When this happens the PMC will openly discuss the matter, most
following actions, in order, if there is a continuing problem with an
1. A friendly off-list warning;
2. A friendly public warning, if the communication at issue was on list,
otherwise another off-list warning;
3. A three month suspension from the public mailing lists and possible
operator action in the IRC channels.
4. A permanent ban from the public mailing lists, IRC channels, and project
JIRA.
For flagrant violations requiring a firm response the PMC may opt to skip
early steps. No action will be taken before public discussion leading
to consensus or a successful majority vote.
<<<
Post by Sean Busbey
Due to an off list request, let me clarify my previous email. Apologies
if
deal
Post by Sean Busbey
with ASF mechanics.
went
Post by Sean Busbey
would we would vote against a 3 month ban if Andrew called a vote. My
messages.
In ASF terminology, votes are one of
* <0 against or a veto depending on what kind of vote has been called,
usually "-1"
* 0 either neutral or too conflicted to state a for/against preference,
usually has some concerns attached
* >0 in favor, usually "+1"
I precisely said "I would not vote -1" because I would not take a stance
that might cause the vote to fail, but I would not vote in favor. I very
likely would vote "-0 I think moderating his messages will suffice, but
acknowledge the community does not want that."
Post by Sean Busbey
I would not vote -1 on a 3 month ban. It doesn't look like we have
consensus around moderating messages.
<javascript:;>>
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Andrew Purtell
For those who are advocating moderation, would you be opposed if I
propose
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Andrew Purtell
a 3 month ban for a vote? If you are not opposed, then we should be
able
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Andrew Purtell
to
achieve consensus here without needing a vote to take place.
--
Sean
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
Andrew Purtell
2015-08-20 18:03:17 UTC
Permalink
My apologies for letting this slip. I posted a patch for our site
documentation on HBASE-14091 and it should be committed shortly.
Post by Stack
I like your proposed text Andrew.
St.Ack
Post by Andrew Purtell
It looks like the discussion is settling down and we have a consensus on
the course of action of a three month temporary ban from the project
mailing lists. If you feel that is not correct please say so, otherwise
on
Post by Andrew Purtell
Monday the PMC will begin that process.
Going forward I think we should have a documented policy. We've never
needed this before but now that has changed. Below is a strawman for your
kind consideration. I will file a JIRA with a site update proposal next
week if someone doesn't beat me to it.
We expect participants in discussions on the HBase project mailing lists,
IRC channels, and JIRA issues to abide by the Apache Software
Foundation's
Post by Andrew Purtell
Code of Conduct (http://apache.org/foundation/policies/conduct.html).
If you feel there had been a violation of this code, please point out
your
Post by Andrew Purtell
concerns publicly in a friendly and matter of fact manner.
Nonverbal communication is prone to misinterpretation and
misunderstanding.
Post by Andrew Purtell
Everyone has bad days and sometimes says things they regret later.
Someone
Post by Andrew Purtell
else's communication style may clash with yours, but the difference can
be
Post by Andrew Purtell
amicably resolved. After pointing out your concerns please be generous
upon
Post by Andrew Purtell
receiving an apology.
Should there be repeated instances of code of conduct violations, or if
there is an obvious and severe violation, the HBase PMC may become
involved. When this happens the PMC will openly discuss the matter, most
following actions, in order, if there is a continuing problem with an
1. A friendly off-list warning;
2. A friendly public warning, if the communication at issue was on list,
otherwise another off-list warning;
3. A three month suspension from the public mailing lists and possible
operator action in the IRC channels.
4. A permanent ban from the public mailing lists, IRC channels, and
project
Post by Andrew Purtell
JIRA.
For flagrant violations requiring a firm response the PMC may opt to skip
early steps. No action will be taken before public discussion leading
to consensus or a successful majority vote.
<<<
Post by Sean Busbey
Due to an off list request, let me clarify my previous email. Apologies
if
deal
Post by Sean Busbey
with ASF mechanics.
went
Post by Sean Busbey
would we would vote against a 3 month ban if Andrew called a vote. My
in
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by Sean Busbey
messages.
In ASF terminology, votes are one of
* <0 against or a veto depending on what kind of vote has been called,
usually "-1"
* 0 either neutral or too conflicted to state a for/against preference,
usually has some concerns attached
* >0 in favor, usually "+1"
I precisely said "I would not vote -1" because I would not take a
stance
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by Sean Busbey
that might cause the vote to fail, but I would not vote in favor. I
very
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by Sean Busbey
likely would vote "-0 I think moderating his messages will suffice, but
acknowledge the community does not want that."
Post by Sean Busbey
I would not vote -1 on a 3 month ban. It doesn't look like we have
consensus around moderating messages.
<javascript:;>>
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Andrew Purtell
For those who are advocating moderation, would you be opposed if I
propose
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Andrew Purtell
a 3 month ban for a vote? If you are not opposed, then we should be
able
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Sean Busbey
Post by Andrew Purtell
to
achieve consensus here without needing a vote to take place.
--
Sean
Patrick Angeles
2015-07-01 12:03:04 UTC
Permalink
Beyond the personal insults, he is clearly arguing for the sake of arguing.
Not productive. I'm also with Stack -- moderation is work. Ban. It's not
like there aren't other outlets for this kind of behavior, just don't let
them do it here.
Post by Andrew Purtell
Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this is
about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic
people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back on the
original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going to
defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the first
time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Post by lars hofhansl
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the
only one.
Post by lars hofhansl
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of Michael.
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion
thread)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still
seems
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month
period
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list,
but
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming
that
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal
-
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet
Hein
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Ted Malaska
2015-07-01 12:15:27 UTC
Permalink
Should I start a new Thread to talk about multi client?

I sorry this all had to happen on my thread. I hope I didn't cause it.

My goal is simple I would like to set up some thing that would help HBase
compete in the multi cluster up up use cases.

The design in this thread I think is a good starting point, but I'm super
open to modifying it to improve on it. I just feel as more the cloud and
global cluster setups become a thing the more this use case is going to
come up, and I would love for HBase to have a simple solution that covers
the majority of use cases.

Ted Malaska
Post by Patrick Angeles
Beyond the personal insults, he is clearly arguing for the sake of arguing.
Not productive. I'm also with Stack -- moderation is work. Ban. It's not
like there aren't other outlets for this kind of behavior, just don't let
them do it here.
Post by Andrew Purtell
Huh? This is not about being caremad over some technical issue, this is
about preserving a productive space for communication free from toxic
people casting abuse while being "funny" and "smart". Please go back on
the
Post by Andrew Purtell
original thread and re-read the interaction with Sean. Are you going to
defend that as within the bounds of acceptable behavior? Is this the
first
Post by Andrew Purtell
time that has happened?
Post by lars hofhansl
Moderating is better than outright banning, I think.While Micheal is
sometimes infuriating, he's also funny and smart.
Post by lars hofhansl
Can we have a group of moderators? I'd volunteer, but not if I'm the
only one.
Post by lars hofhansl
-- Lars
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2015 12:25 PM
Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] correcting abusive behavior on mailing lists was
(Re: [DISCUSS] Multi-Cluster HBase Client)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Sorry. Changed my mind. I'm not going to do more work because of
Michael.
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by lars hofhansl
Let the filters do the work for us. Ban him for 3 months.
St.Ack
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion
thread)
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still
seems
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community
or
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month
period
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list,
but
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming
that
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
I
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to volunteer
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my
proposal
Post by Andrew Purtell
-
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
a
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for
a
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we
would
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough, in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then
please
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Purtell <
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities
if
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in
engineering
Post by Andrew Purtell
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet
Hein
Post by lars hofhansl
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Sean Busbey
2015-07-01 12:23:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Malaska
Should I start a new Thread to talk about multi client?
I sorry this all had to happen on my thread. I hope I didn't cause it.
My goal is simple I would like to set up some thing that would help HBase
compete in the multi cluster up up use cases.
The design in this thread I think is a good starting point, but I'm super
open to modifying it to improve on it. I just feel as more the cloud and
global cluster setups become a thing the more this use case is going to
come up, and I would love for HBase to have a simple solution that covers
the majority of use cases.
I hope your existing thread can be recovered to discuss the topic. Let's
try that out before restarting it as a new thread.
--
Sean
Sean Busbey
2015-07-01 12:40:27 UTC
Permalink
I am a very new here and also my contribution to the mailing list has been
limited as well. I am not even a committer. But I have been following and
reading the mailing list for a while. So given that, I am taking the
liberty and chiming in my 2 cents. I don't profess or claim to read other
people's mind or comment on how they truly are or be patronizing. These are
just purely my subjective observations. No offense intended.
Part of why we have these discussions on the open lists instead of on a
committer-only or PMC-only list is that the open lists define the
community. There's no need to caveat your feedback; your voice in this
matters.
I totally understand where Andrew Purtell and Stack are coming from and
yes, Michael Segel has been in the past and in this particular email too,
be quite rude and dismissive. Unnecessarily so. At the same time, he is
clearly a smart guy when it comes to the topic of the mailing list. I also
realize that being smart or intelligent in one's field or area does not
give you a free pass to railroad or demean everyone else. But the thing is
that I don't think Michael is just a mean or rude person. Quite a few
times, he tries to temper his sarcastic barbs with a smiley and emoticons
to lighten the effect. Especially if they are of the personal nature or in
direct response to another poster (on the other hand he could be harsh when
talking about design decisions in general). I also have a belief (blind
faith as I of course have not met him, lol) that he is more than just a
smart guy in this area but, in general a sensible individual too and this
was mostly a misstep and the tone was not tempered at all(?)
Tempering attacks on individuals does not mitigate their inappropriateness.
Given that I agree that Michael is an intelligent person, there have been
too many times that Michael has directly attacked individuals for me to
believe it's a misstep. (I don't want this to become a review of terrible
emails, but frankly the insult towards me in this case was mild compared to
his past behavior i.e. towards Andrew.)

There are lots of smart people in the world. HBase is lucky enough to have
quite a few of them in our community. Even if we didn't, there's no level
of insight that would excuse behaving poorly in the group. Community > Code
is the core of the ASF and one sarcastic genius can't be a community.
Lastly having said all that, as this has never happened before here on the
list (if I remember correctly and as mentioned by Andrew), 'ban' is a
pretty severe measure. Moderation is better in this regard. I have been
moderating a totally unrelated web forum for few years now and things get
pretty rowdy there (to put it mildly) and thus ban is not used that
lightly, and in extreme cases.
Without implying anything about your referenced web forum (since I
obviously know nothing about it), in many cases spaces that are described
as "rowdy" or "no holds barred" are thin masks for harassment and abuse. I
do not want the HBase mailing lists to be described in those terms. I want
it to be described as "nice" or "friendly". I would love "spirited" so long
as it does not include "rude." There are plenty of folks who meet the
standard of "spirited" without crossing the line into "rude" already, so I
don't see why we need to err on the side of tolerating poor behavior.

That said, I agree that banning is a severe measure. I hope we have enough
moderators that consensus can be reached for that approach. If not, I'm in
favor of a ban over not taking action.
Also, even if we don't want to moderate because of effort involved, why not
go with a 'warning' system. Give 2 warnings and then on the third strike
you are banned. Or start with temporary bans which could be extended after
2-3 strikes.
We always, always need to start with warnings. Personally, I prefer to
include a pointer to the foundation code of conduct when letting someone
know they've crossed a line. But including a citation of the code of
conduct isn't strictly necessary and the warning need not come from a PMC
member nor even a committer. Michael has been warned several times, so I
don't think that's an issue here.
--
Sean
Suzanne McIntosh
2015-07-01 14:21:29 UTC
Permalink
As long as Michael has been warned in the past, I vote for a three
month ban with option of a reduced one month ban if he is willing to
write an apology to Sean and the community.
Post by Sean Busbey
I am a very new here and also my contribution to the mailing list has been
limited as well. I am not even a committer. But I have been following and
reading the mailing list for a while. So given that, I am taking the
liberty and chiming in my 2 cents. I don't profess or claim to read other
people's mind or comment on how they truly are or be patronizing. These are
just purely my subjective observations. No offense intended.
Part of why we have these discussions on the open lists instead of on a
committer-only or PMC-only list is that the open lists define the
community. There's no need to caveat your feedback; your voice in this
matters.
I totally understand where Andrew Purtell and Stack are coming from and
yes, Michael Segel has been in the past and in this particular email too,
be quite rude and dismissive. Unnecessarily so. At the same time, he is
clearly a smart guy when it comes to the topic of the mailing list. I also
realize that being smart or intelligent in one's field or area does not
give you a free pass to railroad or demean everyone else. But the thing is
that I don't think Michael is just a mean or rude person. Quite a few
times, he tries to temper his sarcastic barbs with a smiley and emoticons
to lighten the effect. Especially if they are of the personal nature or in
direct response to another poster (on the other hand he could be harsh when
talking about design decisions in general). I also have a belief (blind
faith as I of course have not met him, lol) that he is more than just a
smart guy in this area but, in general a sensible individual too and this
was mostly a misstep and the tone was not tempered at all(?)
Tempering attacks on individuals does not mitigate their inappropriateness.
Given that I agree that Michael is an intelligent person, there have been
too many times that Michael has directly attacked individuals for me to
believe it's a misstep. (I don't want this to become a review of terrible
emails, but frankly the insult towards me in this case was mild compared to
his past behavior i.e. towards Andrew.)
There are lots of smart people in the world. HBase is lucky enough to have
quite a few of them in our community. Even if we didn't, there's no level
of insight that would excuse behaving poorly in the group. Community > Code
is the core of the ASF and one sarcastic genius can't be a community.
Lastly having said all that, as this has never happened before here on the
list (if I remember correctly and as mentioned by Andrew), 'ban' is a
pretty severe measure. Moderation is better in this regard. I have been
moderating a totally unrelated web forum for few years now and things get
pretty rowdy there (to put it mildly) and thus ban is not used that
lightly, and in extreme cases.
Without implying anything about your referenced web forum (since I
obviously know nothing about it), in many cases spaces that are described
as "rowdy" or "no holds barred" are thin masks for harassment and abuse. I
do not want the HBase mailing lists to be described in those terms. I want
it to be described as "nice" or "friendly". I would love "spirited" so long
as it does not include "rude." There are plenty of folks who meet the
standard of "spirited" without crossing the line into "rude" already, so I
don't see why we need to err on the side of tolerating poor behavior.
That said, I agree that banning is a severe measure. I hope we have enough
moderators that consensus can be reached for that approach. If not, I'm in
favor of a ban over not taking action.
Also, even if we don't want to moderate because of effort involved, why not
go with a 'warning' system. Give 2 warnings and then on the third strike
you are banned. Or start with temporary bans which could be extended after
2-3 strikes.
We always, always need to start with warnings. Personally, I prefer to
include a pointer to the foundation code of conduct when letting someone
know they've crossed a line. But including a citation of the code of
conduct isn't strictly necessary and the warning need not come from a PMC
member nor even a committer. Michael has been warned several times, so I
don't think that's an issue here.
--
Sean
Amandeep Khurana
2015-07-01 15:11:55 UTC
Permalink
I've seen other threads like this from Michael in the past. While I ignore
them when they show up, it is certainly off putting to the community
members and discourage open discussions and sharing of ideas. Some people
might not understand the problems as well as others or might have
completely different perspectives. We want to take them along and help them
ramp up and use the software, not discourage them entirely. We want to grow
as a community and improve as a software so ideas and contributions in any
way form or shape are healthy and should be welcomed.

In this case, I vote for a temporary ban. That's for 2 reasons:

1. We have already spent enough time and mental energy discussing this
topic that's not directly relevant to the project or technology. It's not a
healthy use of the community members' time. Moderation will only need more
time from folks here. I moderated a forum in the past and there were times
where I couldn't act in a timely manner and threads slipped.

2. This isn't the first time we have had something like from Michael. He
has been warned in the past.
Post by Suzanne McIntosh
As long as Michael has been warned in the past, I vote for a three
month ban with option of a reduced one month ban if he is willing to
write an apology to Sean and the community.
Post by Sean Busbey
I am a very new here and also my contribution to the mailing list has
been
Post by Sean Busbey
limited as well. I am not even a committer. But I have been following
and
Post by Sean Busbey
reading the mailing list for a while. So given that, I am taking the
liberty and chiming in my 2 cents. I don't profess or claim to read
other
Post by Sean Busbey
people's mind or comment on how they truly are or be patronizing. These
are
Post by Sean Busbey
just purely my subjective observations. No offense intended.
Part of why we have these discussions on the open lists instead of on a
committer-only or PMC-only list is that the open lists define the
community. There's no need to caveat your feedback; your voice in this
matters.
I totally understand where Andrew Purtell and Stack are coming from and
yes, Michael Segel has been in the past and in this particular email
too,
Post by Sean Busbey
be quite rude and dismissive. Unnecessarily so. At the same time, he is
clearly a smart guy when it comes to the topic of the mailing list. I
also
Post by Sean Busbey
realize that being smart or intelligent in one's field or area does not
give you a free pass to railroad or demean everyone else. But the thing
is
Post by Sean Busbey
that I don't think Michael is just a mean or rude person. Quite a few
times, he tries to temper his sarcastic barbs with a smiley and
emoticons
Post by Sean Busbey
to lighten the effect. Especially if they are of the personal nature or
in
Post by Sean Busbey
direct response to another poster (on the other hand he could be harsh
when
Post by Sean Busbey
talking about design decisions in general). I also have a belief (blind
faith as I of course have not met him, lol) that he is more than just a
smart guy in this area but, in general a sensible individual too and
this
Post by Sean Busbey
was mostly a misstep and the tone was not tempered at all(?)
Tempering attacks on individuals does not mitigate their
inappropriateness.
Post by Sean Busbey
Given that I agree that Michael is an intelligent person, there have been
too many times that Michael has directly attacked individuals for me to
believe it's a misstep. (I don't want this to become a review of terrible
emails, but frankly the insult towards me in this case was mild compared
to
Post by Sean Busbey
his past behavior i.e. towards Andrew.)
There are lots of smart people in the world. HBase is lucky enough to
have
Post by Sean Busbey
quite a few of them in our community. Even if we didn't, there's no level
of insight that would excuse behaving poorly in the group. Community >
Code
Post by Sean Busbey
is the core of the ASF and one sarcastic genius can't be a community.
Lastly having said all that, as this has never happened before here on
the
Post by Sean Busbey
list (if I remember correctly and as mentioned by Andrew), 'ban' is a
pretty severe measure. Moderation is better in this regard. I have been
moderating a totally unrelated web forum for few years now and things
get
Post by Sean Busbey
pretty rowdy there (to put it mildly) and thus ban is not used that
lightly, and in extreme cases.
Without implying anything about your referenced web forum (since I
obviously know nothing about it), in many cases spaces that are described
as "rowdy" or "no holds barred" are thin masks for harassment and abuse.
I
Post by Sean Busbey
do not want the HBase mailing lists to be described in those terms. I
want
Post by Sean Busbey
it to be described as "nice" or "friendly". I would love "spirited" so
long
Post by Sean Busbey
as it does not include "rude." There are plenty of folks who meet the
standard of "spirited" without crossing the line into "rude" already, so
I
Post by Sean Busbey
don't see why we need to err on the side of tolerating poor behavior.
That said, I agree that banning is a severe measure. I hope we have
enough
Post by Sean Busbey
moderators that consensus can be reached for that approach. If not, I'm
in
Post by Sean Busbey
favor of a ban over not taking action.
Also, even if we don't want to moderate because of effort involved, why
not
Post by Sean Busbey
go with a 'warning' system. Give 2 warnings and then on the third strike
you are banned. Or start with temporary bans which could be extended
after
Post by Sean Busbey
2-3 strikes.
We always, always need to start with warnings. Personally, I prefer to
include a pointer to the foundation code of conduct when letting someone
know they've crossed a line. But including a citation of the code of
conduct isn't strictly necessary and the warning need not come from a PMC
member nor even a committer. Michael has been warned several times, so I
don't think that's an issue here.
--
Sean
Andrew Purtell
2015-07-01 15:46:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

Unfortunately we can't expect newcomers to our lists to know in advance that so and so is sarcastic and hostile so should be ignored. We can't expect everyone to be ok with abuse. In fact I believe we should take the exact opposite position. Who knows how many will decide not to participate and how many discussions will never happen in forums where rude people are given license to randomly turn up, derail conversation, and abuse people. Our mailing lists are publicly archived. Someone will (not might) find an archived thread from a search engine when looking for an answer to something, follow the thread, find rude communication, and get the impression that is a defining characteristic of our community because nobody then counters it (if we are simply ignoring it as you suggest). To me that prospect isn't acceptable.
Why not simply ignore offending messages?
It is possible to set up a filter in personal email box which bins
emails from certain authors so they don't show up even.
Spam needs to be addressed. But moderating?...
Vladimir Rodionov
2015-06-30 19:25:46 UTC
Permalink
Apologize for off-top, but jumping in with my question into other
discussion is the only way I can
ask the question (see below).

Have I been banned recently from opening discussions on dev list :) ? I can
join any discussion, except my own ... For some reasons, Apache mail
server ignores me in this case.

Or its just a bug?

-Vlad
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion thread)
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still seems
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month
period
Post by Sean Busbey
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list, but
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming
that I
Post by Sean Busbey
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to
volunteer
Post by Sean Busbey
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
Post by Sean Busbey
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal
- a
Post by Sean Busbey
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we would
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough,
Post by Sean Busbey
in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities if
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
Post by Sean Busbey
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by Sean Busbey
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in engineering
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet
Hein
Post by Sean Busbey
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
Andrew Purtell
2015-06-30 19:29:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Vlad,

We have not even considered bans of any kind prior to this day.

Apache mail can be fickle sometimes. Please try resending if there's a
discussion you would like to start. I'll watch for anything of yours that
may turn up in the moderator queue for some reason.
Post by Vladimir Rodionov
Apologize for off-top, but jumping in with my question into other
discussion is the only way I can
ask the question (see below).
Have I been banned recently from opening discussions on dev list :) ? I can
join any discussion, except my own ... For some reasons, Apache mail
server ignores me in this case.
Or its just a bug?
-Vlad
Post by Stack
I volunteer to help moderate.
St.Ack
Post by Sean Busbey
(I took the liberty of moving us off of Ted's feature discussion
thread)
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
A three month ban sounds better than a permanent ban. But it still
seems
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
likely to just result in the ban-ee walking away from teh community or
escalating.
Would we consider enforcing moderation on posts for the three month
period
Post by Sean Busbey
instead of an outright ban?
It's more work for whomever has moderator rights on the mailing list,
but
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
it provides a better feedback cycle for improved behavior. Presuming
that I
Post by Sean Busbey
don't already have such access as a PMC member, I'd be willing to
volunteer
Post by Sean Busbey
to help take on part of the burden.
-Sean
It was suggested privately that we try a temporary ban first, to be
clear
Post by Sean Busbey
that current behavior and communication is unacceptable and won't be
tolerated further, yet allow for the possibility of a return to the
community should the message be received. So let me amend my proposal
- a
Post by Sean Busbey
three month temporary ban.
Also, the reason I am asking for public feedback before calling for a
vote
is this would be the first time in the history of the project we
would
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
take
this very unfortunate step. It pains me personally but enough is
enough,
Post by Sean Busbey
in
my opinion. However, if you are not comfortable with that then please
speak
up and I won't ask the PMC to vote on this.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Andrew Purtell <
I've had enough and would like to ask the user and dev communities
if
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
they
would mind if we vote on a permanent ban of Michael Segal - any and
all
Post by Sean Busbey
email accounts he may choose to set up - from all HBase mailing
lists.
Post by Sean Busbey
The
basic lack of courtesy and constant naysaying is corrosive. Nobody
trying
to volunteer their time here deserves his continuing abuse.
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 7:55 AM, Michael Segel <
Sean,
You’re a developer, or just some higher level primate that pounds
code?
I don’t want to embarrass you, but what do they teach in
engineering
Post by Stack
Post by Sean Busbey
schools these days?
--
Best regards,
- Andy
Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet
Hein
Post by Sean Busbey
(via Tom White)
--
Sean
--
Best regards,

- Andy

Problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back. - Piet Hein
(via Tom White)
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